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Jared F

You've got to be kidding me. This person is proving the opposite side's argument. Using Nazi Germany as a support for talking about Palestine is ridiculous. The reason the German's elected Hitler can be traced to England and the US abusive treatment of Germany post-WW1. The destructive manner with which the deliberations went after the war left the German people economically and politically ruined, and not in the proper, respectful manner most post-war treatments go (we did it right post-WWII), it completely destroyed them. The innocent along with the guilty, in this manner their response was to cling to a person that represented a strong nationalistic character. Strong nationalism always leads to the kind of behavior you saw enveloping Germany during that time. In the same way, our treatment of Palestine (and Iraq) will inevitably lead to anti-American elected officials (for the record, what is going on in Iraq cannot be considered democratic since their elected nominations are being selected for them by people set in authority by a foreign power). The solution is to implement a foreign policy that is not condescending or overpowering. As soon as we start implementing a "democratic" foreign policy, they will probably be a lot more keen on accepting democratic ideals. But as it stands, our hypocrisy doesn't support the ideals we are shoving down their throat.


First, regarding the treaty of Versailles (excuse the spelling), that was driven by our friends the French, to a lesser extent the English, and we had precious little to do with it. Blaming the current members of the Coalition of the Willing for WWII is transparently partisan.
As to the Iraqi elections being only quasi-democratic, you're an election behind. Their progress toward real democracy is quite amazing and inspiring, really.
Curious about your (or anybody's for that matter)thoughts about Italy, post-fascism, and WWII. Everybody only talks about Germany and Japan.


So, could you be a bit more specific about "a foreign policy that is not condescending or overpowering?" What does that mean, exactly? How does it differ from the Clinton policies?


First, we had a ton to do with the Treaty. We may not have participated during, but we established clear guidelines with France as to what must happen (and France followed them to the letter).

Second, calling what I said partisan is rediculous, and you would be better off not using buzz words and political cliches in your arguments.

Amazing and inspiring? What is this based off of? The latest Flame rendered headlines on the news? You would do well to look into what the people over there think, rather than what our regurgitated media has decided to paint it as. Remember when Vietnam had their democratic elections? I believe we were quoted a 78% turnout, and then the shit hit the fan.

Italy's turn to fascism held largely the same reasons. Disgust at their rejection for A.H. territory in the treaties and disgust at the post-war resolutions.

Why are you asking me questions about Clinton? Do you assume that I approve of his foreign policy? For the record, I don't. As it stands, our intrusion into Iraq was a pre-emptive attack, an act that in and of itself is oppressive. There was no reason for our urgent intrusion into their country, beyond some vaguely, and misappropriated claim of self-preservation. This establishes a pretense for a certain level of priority in the minds of the Iraqi people, and can you blame them? We placed our interests over theirs when deciding what to do with their country. Pretty outrageous if you really think about it. Clinton did the same thing in the Balkans and in Sudan. Now tens of thousands of people are dying every year in Sudan because their medical facilities were destroyed in response to "terrorism." In the same way that the Iraqi people will never recover from the economic devastation we have plagued them with. The horrible irony of all this is that we supported Iraq through the destruction that was going on in the 70s and 80s, and it's when things really begin to turn up for them that we go in and erradicate any chance they have of being able to sustain their own economy and way of life. Instead we offer them a half assed form of democracy that we maintain true control over.


Hey JF, I'm not trying to pick a fight. I've been trying to have conversations here (without much luck) for a couple of years now. I gotta go eat dinner now, but I'll try to get back to this before I hit the hay.


I've been thinking about what you said, and after pondering it for a few days I went back and read through the thread. I couldn't help but notice that my original question -- What would the Left do? -- still remains to be answered. Your statement, "... and it's when things really begin to turn up for them that we go in and erradicate any chance they have of being able to sustain their own economy and way of life" makes me think the your answer to my question of what to do about Iraq would be:
Let the sanctions expire.
Forget about the no-fly zone.
Deal with Saddam until he dies, then deal with his son(s).

Or is there some other, better idea? Don't let me put words in your mouth, but I'd really like to hear a proposed solution from the other side.

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November 2008

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Seen at low tide

  • American White Pelican
    Saw 30 in one flock on a weptember evening while fishing
  • Hummingbird
    Finally, my first hummingbirds. Saw them on a fire bush in Crystal Beach, FL. My rental's neighbor's yard is all xeriscaped, which is ugly to me but just fine with the little hummers. At first, I thought they were the biggest hornets I'd ever seen.
  • Flamingo!
    One of these dudes flew right over my house. I couldn't believe it. And please don't tell me it was a roseated spoonbill because it was a frickin' flamingo, dude! Huge and pink and right there above me. I was like so freaking out, you know?
  • Falcon!
    Don't see these guys too often. Wish we did. Bet the morning doves don't.
  • Black Skimmer
    These beauties are getting scarce, but one flew by yesterday at low tide on the hunt for minnows.
  • Dead sea turtle
    cool, but smelly
  • Reddish Egret
    These have been hanging out around the pool quite a bit lately. Must be a new group of adolesent birds -- the youngsters like to hunt where the water is clear, and it takes them a day to figure out there are not now and never will be fish in the swimming pool no matter how clear the water.
  • Sand Piper
  • Brown Pelican
    I saw a flock of about 200 of these at Disappearing Island yesterday, just south of Anclote Island on the west coast of FL. Good to see such a large flock.
  • Wood Pecker
    They've developed a sudden interest in the orange tree, which just went into bloom.
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