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brandy

sigh. It's detailed every night on the non-fox news stations. There are papper books disscussing it.

I know you probably don't agree with any of the plans that are going around, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Just because you don't want there to be one, doesn't mean there isn't.

Just because you keep saying there isn't one, doesn't mean there isn't.

Just because the Republican pundents want you to believe something, it doesn't make it true.

Sigh. I'm not asking you to stop bashing the democrates. I'm just asking you to get it right.

MikeInSeattle

It does seem as though the Right considers their own ignorance to be their greatest virtue.

I'd love, for once, to actually see an honest discussion between the various sides without the Right's "leaders" telling their followers what liberals, democrats and others they dislike believe or do.

Not only is there a Democratic plan, there are several. (as there are several Republican plans). There have been for months.

On top of that, it really is nice that there is. The Republican's dug us into this hole and, frankly, they have the responsibility of digging us out. That the Democrats are willing to help despite being attacked for warning the Republicans of their pending and obvious errors is an act of patriotism and true bipartisanship. (Bipartisanship, despite the Bush Administration's speeches, does not mean, "My party will tell you what to do and your party can shut up and do it")

pedro

OK, to be fair, the plans I've heard of from the left are:

1. "Redeploy" to Okinawa.
2. Have the Sunnies and the Shieas, in conversations and open dialog with the Syrians and Iranins, get together and blah blah blah blah.

I've also heard loud demands for more troops, that is, until the President actually sent more troops, at which point most all the lefties started opposing more troops in language pretty much identical to Mike's above.

The plans I see could be summed up as Defeat-Redefined and Magic. Neither qualifies as a plan for victory.

You've been saying since I started this blog that there were lefty plans for victory, and I've been asking you, what are they?

No fire hose argumentation or links, please. Just sum it/them up -- what is the plan?

MikeInSeattle

Um. Actually, you never heard "send more troops" from the left. You DID hear, "When Bush was going to do this idiotic, evil and illegal plan, he did it so badly that the execution of his plan guaranteed failure."

It's kind of like this...

A rancher sees a stump in the middle of a herd of thousands of head of steers. He decides to blow up the stump.

His friends all warn him that if he blows up the stump he'll spook the steers and start a stampede. He says, "No, I'm going to just use a cherry bomb".

He does just that despite his friends warnings and the stump isn't damaged but the steers all stampede destroying the rancher's house.

It's like that. We all warned that this was idiotic. That we said that doesn't preclude us from noting that the plan was sufficiently incompetent as well so that it would not only cause all the bad side effects but not accomplish the goal.

Of course, now the Republicans keep asking us what our plan is for gathering up the steers and rebuilding the house and getting rid of the stump. Now, our real plan is, "Don't blow up the stump in the middle of the herd, you stupid moron" but it's too late for that. And adding more firecrackers won't blow up the stump nor gather the herd nor rebuild the house.

MikeInSeattle

As for "Lefty plans for 'Victory'"...

Tell you what, first define "victory".

Bush hasn't been able to in any way that he and his historical revisionists have been able to agree to for more than a few weeks at a time. Partly because they also couldn't agree on a reason why we needed to go into this disaster.

Of course, if you don't know what you want to accomplish, it's awfully hard to say when you've done it or how to accomplish it.

So, is it:
Get rid of Hussein's Nuclear, Biological and Chemical Weapons that could strike the US at any time?
Check. There certainly aren't any. Done. Let's go home. (Of course there never were any)

Get rid of the Ba'athist party's control of Iraq?
Check. Done. Let's go home.

Establish a Democratic government in Iraq?
Check. Done. Let's go home.

Remove Saddam Hussein as an ally of alQaida?
Check. He hated them as much as we did. Of course, now a good percentage of Iraq has changed their minds and backs the same alQaida they used to hate... Done. Let's go home.

Try Hussein for his massacre of the Kurds with US-provided chemical weapons?
Oops. Too late. We killed him without bothering. Guess we didn't want to testify. At any rate, as done as we can make it. Let's go home.

Give Bush's campaign contributors no-bid, guaranteed profit contracts with no oversight and big duffle bags of $100 bills to spread around?
Check. Done. Let's go home.

So, again, tell us all exactly what "Victory" looks like. If you can, we can tell you a plan to succeed. If not, we'll just give you a plan to stop making things worse, salvage what's possible from this disaster and save some of our troops' lives. Which, while not good, is the best choice left to us by Bush and company's mindless incompetence on top of mindless corruption.

pedro

So, your plan is:

It's up to conservatives to define victory.

It's Bush's fault.

We told you so.

So the cartoon that started this thread is wrong how?

MikeInSeattle

Well, you disqualify solutions that don't match a "Victory" that I've already shown is as flexible as necessary to guarantee the ability to reject any answer. You can't define a plan if you don't know what you want to achieve. Shame Bush doesn't know that.

Is it Bush's fault. Yes. Absolutely. The buck stops there. If he doesn't have the guts to own the results of his decisions he should go back to mismanaging his toy companies where the only damage from it was losing his family's money rather than losing American lives.

Actually, we did. Maybe it's time to listen to people with a track record of being right. That sure isn't Bush or anyone connected with this administration.

Well, because there are Democratic Plans for Iraq. (Including one backed by your hero Bill Orally)

So, define what "Victory" is and we can have a discussion. If not, then, move out of the way and we'll lead.

pedro

WTF?

I've been asking you for years to tell me what the plan is. What the hell is the plan? Whatever your definition of victory is, and yes, I'd like to know what that is, too, how is the Left going to achieve it?

WHAT IS THE PLAN?

MikeInSeattle

Actually, you already listed two plans but said they didn't match your definition of "Victory" (although you didn't actually describe them accurately)

If you and the rest of the Right can't say what the goal is, then perhaps that's why your plans have been failing so badly.

Our goal is to get our troops out while minimizing the damage caused by the Bush fiasco but that's probably not yours.

Go ahead. Tell us all:
The right's goal (how do you define "Victory")
The right's plan (how do we get there)

I've already shown that the Bush White House hasn't been able to define a goal. Maybe you can do better. (It's hard not to)

MikeInSeattle

Actually, you already listed two plans but said they didn't match your definition of "Victory" (although you didn't actually describe them accurately)

If you and the rest of the Right can't say what the goal is, then perhaps that's why your plans have been failing so badly.

Our goal is to get our troops out while minimizing the damage caused by the Bush fiasco but that's probably not yours.

Go ahead. Tell us all:
The right's goal (how do you define "Victory")
The right's plan (how do we get there)

I've already shown that the Bush White House hasn't been able to define a goal. Maybe you can do better. (It's hard not to)

MikeInSeattle

Or to put it very simply...

When we got into this war we were told that we went in because Saddam Hussein was imminently going to attack us with weapons of mass destruction.

Hence, "Victory" was defined as making it virtually impossible for Saddam to attack us with those weapons.

OK. Given that definition of "Victory", it's safe to say that the goal was accomplished (even before we went in)

I'd say our plan to achieve that "Victory" is:

Leave Now

(well, preferably don't go in at all but it isn't as though sanity or expertise has been taken seriously over the last few years)

So, what are we trying to accomplish now that makes you think we should stay in Iraq risking tens of thousands of American lives and costing hundreds of billions of dollars?

Can't say? That says a lot.

pedro

OK, got it. Leave now.
Thanks for your clarity.

Mike in Seattle

So that means you're defining Victory as "making it virtually impossible for Saddam to attack us with those weapons"?

Well, then. Why are you saying we should stay?

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Seen at low tide

  • American White Pelican
    Saw 30 in one flock on a weptember evening while fishing
  • Hummingbird
    Finally, my first hummingbirds. Saw them on a fire bush in Crystal Beach, FL. My rental's neighbor's yard is all xeriscaped, which is ugly to me but just fine with the little hummers. At first, I thought they were the biggest hornets I'd ever seen.
  • Flamingo!
    One of these dudes flew right over my house. I couldn't believe it. And please don't tell me it was a roseated spoonbill because it was a frickin' flamingo, dude! Huge and pink and right there above me. I was like so freaking out, you know?
  • Falcon!
    Don't see these guys too often. Wish we did. Bet the morning doves don't.
  • Black Skimmer
    These beauties are getting scarce, but one flew by yesterday at low tide on the hunt for minnows.
  • Dead sea turtle
    cool, but smelly
  • Reddish Egret
    These have been hanging out around the pool quite a bit lately. Must be a new group of adolesent birds -- the youngsters like to hunt where the water is clear, and it takes them a day to figure out there are not now and never will be fish in the swimming pool no matter how clear the water.
  • Sand Piper
  • Brown Pelican
    I saw a flock of about 200 of these at Disappearing Island yesterday, just south of Anclote Island on the west coast of FL. Good to see such a large flock.
  • Wood Pecker
    They've developed a sudden interest in the orange tree, which just went into bloom.
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